After reading the two Hawthorne stories closely, write a post that is an analytical reaction to the two texts. Perhaps think about Romantic qualities, symbolism, characterization, the texts as allegories, the concept of sin...
Be sure that you include and discuss at least one quote in your response. You may find an interesting connection between an aspect of the stories or you can look at them separately.
Feel free to respond to and build off of your peers' ideas!
Remember to sign your name at the end.
Hawthorne's "The Minister's Black Veil" seems to base the story on an object and the effect it has on society. The black veil that Mr. Hopper dons is a barrier that prevents people from prying into his private life. It symbolizes a wall that one puts up so society cannot see what's really behind closed doors. It also shows that society will turn on even the most prestigious figure in town based solely on a material object. While Mr. Hopper is wearing a veil, his morals, character, or values have not changed. Before he dies, he makes a point that his veil is simply to show everyone's imperfections: "Whwhen man does not vainly shrink from the eye of his Creator, loathsomely treasuring up the secret of his sin; then deem me a monster, for the symbol beneath which I have lived, and die! I look around me, and lo! on every visage a Black Veil". He highlights the hypocrisy of this town; they are shunning him, the Reverend, for wearing a veil, yet behind closed doors they're also sinning. It represents the sinful nature of humans.
ReplyDeleteThe Birthmark, while on the surface, seems diametrically opposed to the Minister's Black Veil, shares a common theme. Something superficial, in this case a birthmark, makes society "turn" from Georgiana. Women and even her own spouse degrade her and tell her she'd be perfect without the birthmark. Humans need to have flaws in order to be mortals; she dies because she is literally perfect. Hawthorne highlights the flaws of mankind striving for perfection which only has one outcome--death. Georgiana's birthmark is interwoven in her skin, and the flaws that her spouse wants to cease ultimately make her character. Thus, he's shedding her birthmark and "purifies" her from herself.
--Alyssa Canderozzi
In "The Black Veil," Hawthorne introduced a veil over the face of the village minister. The veil imediately ignites wonder and mystery in the hearts of the minister's parishioners. Hawthorne uses the veil to symbolize the secrets that each man, woman, and child is burdened with, and how that secrecy creates distance between fellow humans. The priests decision (if it was!) to wear the veil, while retaining all normal behaviors and habits shows how not everyone can see it, but each person wears a veil of their own. Father Hooper shouted at Reverand Clark, "Tremble also at eachother!" to show how he sees, perhaps the ugliest veils of all, the unseen veils of his parssioners and people.
ReplyDeleteThe Birthmark, much like "The fall of the house of usher" uses symbolism to connect the life of an individual to a lifeless form. While Usher deteriorates, as does the house which he resides in. Georgiana slipped from existence as the shadow of a hand on her cheeck faded from veiw. Aylmer's efforts to create perfection ultimately lead to the destruction of his beloved wife. The message in Hawthorne's writing is to accept the imperfections in our lives and embrace the individuality that they instil INSIDE each of us. Imperfections, while troublesome, ultimately lead to the individualization of our souls!!
connor m.
In both "The Black Veil" and "The Birthmark", Hawthorne advises his audience that being at peace with, or at least being aware of, mortal imperfection is necessary for survival. In "The Black Veil", the parable expresses that people hide their truths behind an invisible veil to those around them. Hooper's black veil symbolizes the mortal imperfections and sin which people carry with them though they try to make these imperfections and sins seem minute in their daily lives in comparison to other issues within the community. A similar idea to that in "The Black Veil" is in "The Birthmark". The message in this story is that visible imperfections are sought to be suppressed or hidden by any means necessary but imperfections on the mortal self are what make human life differ distinctly from eternal afterlife. In "The Birthmark", Hawthorne writes "Truth often finds its way to the mind close muffled in robes of sleep, and then speaks with uncompromising directness, of matters in regard to which we practise an unconscious self-deception during our waking moments." (634). This quote sums of Hawthorne's idea that imperfections are always being suppressed until one's inner conscience brings forth the awareness of such impurities of the human self.
ReplyDelete- Jenna
One of the main recurring themes that I noticed throughout both stories was the prevalence of opinions driven by aesthetics. In "The Minister's Black Veil," Mr. Hooper changed nothing about his usual sermons, however everyone's behavior in the church altered dramatically when he wore the black veil. "There was nothing terrible in what Mr. Hooper said, at least, no violence; and yet, with every tremor of his melancholy voice, the hearers quaked." Despite Mr. Hooper's consistent behavior, those attending church acted in a more fearful manner when Mr. Hooper wore the veil. Could this possibly be from fear of the unknown? (Not sure if that is too much of a stretch). It could also be a reaction of fear due to the deviation from the standards at that time. It was something that was not classified as "normal," As for symbolism, I agree with Connor. I believe that the black veil symbolizes secrets and sins and that though Mr. Hooper wears a physical veil, everyone wears a metaphoric black veil (It was Hawthorne's belief that everybody sins.) Also, the idea that he is buried with the veil suggests that everyone will die with sins and secrets. I am still not fully sure what Mr. Hooper's secret was but my instincts point to adultery. (Sorry this is kind of all over the place and drifting from my idea of asthetics) As for "The Birthmark," Georgianna's birthmark represents individualism and morality. It embodies the idea that everybody has imperfections, which come in all shapes, forms, and sizes. It is Alymer's belief that Georgianna could have been the first "perfect person" if not for the hand-shaped birthmark on her face. His desire to perfect her one imperfection becomes his fixation. Meanwhile, as Connor said, Georgianna's life fades along with the birthmark. Could the birthmark symbolize death? Also, the birthmark, which is associated with all things negative differs from Georgianna's true happy, loving, and innocent persona.
ReplyDelete-Steph Madigan
"The Black Veil" by Hawthorne is the story about a clergyman named Mr. Hooper who one day mysteriously arrives outside the town's meeting house wearing a translucent veil. People begin to wonder and suspect why Mr. Hooper would even decide to wear such a depressing piece of clothing on a regular basis all of a sudden. When he gave the first sermon, the actual subject of it "had reference to secret sin, and those sad mysteries which we hide from our nearest and dearest..." (619). What drove Mr. Hooper to wear an ominous piece of clothing like that is unknown, but the clear message is that there is no such thing as a perfect human being who does not commit sinful acts, whether knowingly or unintentionally.
ReplyDelete"The Birthmark" is for the most part the converse of "The Ministers Black Veil". Instead of a piece of clothing, a girl named Georgiana has a small hand-shaped birthmark on her cheek. She marries a scientist named Aylmer, who before the marriage had no problem with her birthmark, but then obsesses over the birthmark until he eventually tries to be rid of it, only resulting in Georgiana's death. The biggest connection between "The Birthmark" and "The minister's black veil" is that human beings in general are imperfect, and that striving to make oneself or others perfect will only cause sorrow. Mr. Hooper may or may not have realized this and thought of things that he himself may have done that could be seen as sinful, and realized the bitter truth. Amazingly Hawthorne portrays this in both a religious environment, as well as the laboratory of a scientist, creating a link between two different and conflicting ideologies. An awful truth shared by both religion and science.
In "The Minister's Black Veil," Hawthorne uses the black veil, draped over the minister's face, to explain the darker side of peoples personalities that are intentionally. The eerie, mysterious veil represents "mortal imperfections," like Jenna said. The townspeople are forced, by Hooper's veil, to face the guilt for their sins they have committed. The veil is a constant reminder of that guilt, and it is human nature to want to ignore it. Hooper conveys that the hidden personalities and sins must be accepted by the individual and by society because we all sin. Like "The Minister's Veil," "The Birthmark" is about imperfections, as well. In "The Birthmark," the imperfection is both physical and psychological. The birthmark on Georgiana is a physical imperfection. Through this physical imperfection, Hawthorne implies that human perfection can only be achieved in death and therefore is not possible, as shown by the death of Georgiana. Psychologically, the birthmark represents the flaws in the human race. Greed is one flaw that takes over some minds, just as it did to Aylmer. Aylmer was greedy for perfection and the absolute beauty of his wife. This greed compares to the sins that the black veil represented. Hawthorne reveals and embraces the truth that the human race does not want to accept in "The Minister's Veil" and "The Birthmark." The truth is that we all wear veils to hide our birthmarks.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading both "The Ministers Veil" and "The Birthmark" I was somewhat overwhelmed with the prescence of emotion and the important ways in which Hawthorne incorporated them. As a reader, one is bombarded with an aray of emotions that are quite different but very important. These emotions would sometimes differ but in many cases they were very similar.
ReplyDeleteOne example that played a large role in the outcomes of both stories was the emotion of fear. All of the ministers followers were immediatley repulsed by their leaders sudden change in appearance. Although it was a simple piece of cloth with no explanation, the people's immediate reaction was to be fearful of this. I am not sure if this is a reasonable or an outrageous response? However, this emotion (fear) seriously impacted the life and future of the minister. With something so small and seemingly pointless, the minister lost almost all of his followers, his authoritative place in society and any respect he held was lost.
Fear was also displayed by the husband in "The Birthmark" creating a huge impact on how the story played out and the future life of his wife. A passage that I found striking and important was on page 639. "Know, then, that this crimson hand, superficial as it seems, has clutched its grasp into your being with a strength of which I had no previous concption./One one thing remians to be tried. If that fails us we are ruined." How in the world can a man who loves his wife, til death due them apart, fear a simple blemish on her face? This quote shows the lengths that he will take to "perfect" his spouse. This misconception of beauty is a serious problen in this society and Hawthrone proves how much it can change peoples opinions and core beliefs.
Unfortunatley, the reality is that even up to this generation and to this day, fear of not being accepted and fear of imperfections on ones outer appearance creates intense turmoil that does not have a true resolution.Hawthorne uses these fears, along with many other emotions to recieve a response from his readers, whether it be good or bad.
After reading both "The Minister's Black Veil" and "The Birthmark" I have noticed that both have a reoccurring motif of the acts of human nature. A society's opinion can over shadow our own opinions and ultimately turn even the closest people against someone. I agree with Connor and Steph I believe that In "The Minister's Black Veil" Mr. Hooper's dark and gloomy veil represents a "secret sin" the sin however is not mentioned in this story, and I find that interesting. I think that maybe this sin could have either been so unspeakable, or that he himself possibly could have committed no sin at all. Mr. Hopper suggests at the end that everyone wears a veil and that he could have just been wearing it to show that he is not afraid to show that he himself has committed sins, "when man does not vainly shrink from the eye of his creator, loathsomely treasuring up the secret of his sin; then deem me a monster, for the symbol beneath which I have lived, and die! I look around me, and lo! on every visage a Black Veil!" (625). Both the black veil and the birthmark represent that people and society is far from perfect, and these slight imperfections lead to mortality. Coincidentally Georgiana and Mr. Hooper both perish at their slight differences. It is human nature to have flaws and imperfections. Like in Aylmer's dream the birthmark connects right to the heart, like flaws, they are evidently "part of us" and a part of someone's character.
ReplyDelete-Emma Barker
"The Ministers Black Veil" and "The Birthmark" could be linked by their similar themes and motifs. Trough the use of the black veil on Mr. Hooper's face and the reactions it distilled from his congregation, Hawthorne was proving that it is part of human nature to acquire a desire to fix or bring attention to th imperfections of another human being. It seems that by wearing the black veil , Mr. Hooper was indirectly showing how sensative humans are to both the appearances and the secrets of others. Hawthorne seems to call upon this theme in "The Birthmark" as well. Aylmer becomes fixated on his wifes birthmark, isisting that it takes away from her beauty and makes her hideous. His obsession with fixing her one and only flaw eventually destroys everything he loves. Much like "The Minister's Black Veil" Hawthorne brings attention to the natural desire for perfction.
ReplyDeletegabby nunes
Alyssa- Excellent "superficial" connection!
ReplyDeleteConnor- I love the exuberance and connections about imperfections (and their importance). :)
Jenna- Interesting distinction between the mortal and moral selves...
Steph M- I really like how you said they connect with the "prevalence of opinions driven by aesthetics" and how each shows deviation from the time's norms.
Dan- great point about the parallel between two conflicting ideologies
ReplyDeleteCal- good connection between greed and sin.
Whoops...Carl, I meant.
ReplyDelete:)
Sarah- Excellent idea about the emotional connection, especially of fear.
ReplyDeleteEmma- Good ideas about human nature and the pressures of society.
Gabby- good point about fixation on flaws
While reading "The Ministers Black Veil and "The Birth Mark" i noticed similaries between the two, both have imperfections but in a very different way. Throught the story of the black veil, the people are forced to face their sins, I think because of the veil. The black veil is a symbol of a "secret sin" like Steph had mentioned. the people of the town do not want to face their sins because no human being wants too, its a scary thing.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading "The Birth Mark," I noticed a theme of imperfections, like Carl had mentioned. Alymers want to make her wife better is overcome with failure. This also connects to "The Ministers Black Veil" because no person is perfect. The minister is wearing the veil to cover up his imperections, I believe and the birthmark on Alymers wife is a symbol of her imperfections. I think that no human is perfect, we are all flawed in some way or another.
-Lindsay B
In the Minister's Black Veil, I believe that there was a certain spiritual connection between Mr. Hooper and society. It seems that he wants to prove something by wearing this mysterious black veil. Like Carl said, I believe that he is wearing it to prove something to the people an make them look upon themselves. As for The Birthmark, I believe that it is connected to the Minister's Black Veil because the story constantly reminds the reader about the physical and psychological effects that the "hand" creating. I feel that the connection between the two stories is very simple; that there are moral and physical defects with everyone and they cannot be cured.
ReplyDeletewho are you, anonymous??
ReplyDeleteOh sorry, Tadas B.
DeleteIn both “The Ministers Black Veil” and "The Birth Mark" the idea of hidden darkness seems to be prevalent. In “The Ministers Black Veil” it can be seen, quite literally though the black veil, hiding the Ministers face from view of the parishioners and in "The Birth Mark" in Aylmer’s desire and seeming obsession to ride his wife of her one imperfection, even though, in his dream, he’s able to see the connection between the birthmark and his wife’s life. It’s that hidden darkness, or perhaps better put, the fear of facing reality and they’re own imperfections, that is repeated. I find it interesting though, that one of these symbols seem to disappear in the end, while the other one remains in death. I perhaps a plausible idea, or at least mine, is that Hawthorne is focusing in once more on the “evil” or imperfect nature of humans, by trying to make her perfect, Aylmer in fact kills his wife, while the minister keeps the veil on, as multiple people have already pointed out, to compensate for this great sin, or even as s simple reminder to himself and everyone around him that none of us are without sin.
ReplyDelete~Stephanie Brown
During the time Hawthorne wrote these stories the rise of Psycology as an accepted study of science started up with the introduction of Psycoanalysis from the " father of Psycology" Sigmund Freud. In both of these stories Hawthorne delves into the mind and how it percicves thinks and acts. Puritans would of course reject this and bring up the idea of god while scientists may embrace or ponder these radical ideas. in "The Ministers Black Veil" we are taught to look beyond apperance, or even to say we all have dark sides but no one shows it so it is forein as to create chaos when one does like the minister. Puritans hold thisside in and the minister wants to show them how similar they all are and not to fear what they dont know. He represents someone who sees the world in a new light but it is a view that you must find for yourself over time, his ideals as a preacher come more natural over our history as a nation but he shows the wrong and introverted view the puritans had. "the Birthmark" on the other hand shows the humanity in imperfection and the goal we all set but never can reach. The scientist represents failure and he puts this need to achive somthing great on his wife with the removal of her birthmark. Just like young Frankenstein he got caught up in the fantasy of perfection blocking out what he had and was real. She hates herself for this birthmark and that is what kills her, in the end she realizes he does love her and his own interest drives the need for its removal. She dies happily knowing she will never be perfect but that Alymer really loved her. Hawthorne wants us to see the primative emotion in both these the need for human perfection in all senses and natural prejudice against change and abnormalities. Wheither your a scientist or preacher people want to be god or as close to him as they can, making a difference as a whole didnt come up until later in our evolution. Being beyone his time with the modern knowledge he had he went back and tore the time of "god" and "enlightenment" apart with analysis, analysing it so he himself can understand what makes us human. And why we think, act, and feel the way we do. these questions have always been asked over time but sometimes it takes a while to realize there is a question at all - Aaron DeBruyn
ReplyDelete"The Ministers Black Veil", Hawthone has the towns minster start wearing a veil on his face. The reactions by the townspeople show how startled they are by change, especially when the change has to do with their religious figures. They become extremely alienated towards the minister and are unaccepting of the viel, they even proceed to shun him for it. This makes me think about how villagefolk would shun people who they thought were witches in ye olde timens, especially with the appearance of supposidly supernatural things, like when it says, "...at the instant when the clergyman's features were disclosed, the corpse had slightly shuddered,...". Throughout the storey, the reader never finds out why the minister is wearing a viel, and whether he did something to deserve it. This provides for alot of suspense and anticipation in an otherwise mundane story.
ReplyDeleteIn "The birthmark", the crazy alchemst guy obssess over a birthmark thathis wife, georgiana has on her cheek. Most people see the birthmark as no big deal, some men even would risk thier lives to "kiss" it. Aylmer however, sees it as symbolizing mortality and sin and cant see her beauty over the mark. Alymer tries to make his wife perfect and remove the mark, but she dies. He was doomed to failure however since mortality isnt perfect, and if something is perfect, that dudes toast and is in heaven since perfect isnt on Earth. In the story, I believe that the birthmark is like mortaility and Alymer tried to remove her mortality to get her to last forever. Thats straight up crazy since if you were immortal, youd still get old so youd be a little pile of fleshy nastiness and nobody would want to look at you. Hawthorne even includes parts about how much other men admire her despite her birthmark as if the slight flaw makes her even awesomer. Like how things are always better if they dont last forever.
Jason El-Messiah
Through out both pieces, "The Ministers Black Vail" and "The Birthmark" both written by Nathaniel Hawthorne the idea that we as humans must become at piece with ourselves is reoccurring theme. Though shown in different ways, both text show both a self reflection and a self acceptance. In "The Ministers Black Vail", Hawthorne uses the black vail as a sense of self acceptance. It seems to me that the purpose of the vail is the conscious decision for Father Hooper to accept his faults and sins and move work with what he was given to try and further purify his self. During "The Birthmark", Hawthorne uses the symbolism of the birthmark to further the importance of "beauty is only skin deep". It furthers the idea that people will have faults but it is necessary to over look it because ones faults or physical deformities are not the deciding factor of if ones a good person or not.
ReplyDelete~Holly